I personally haven't found an AI influencer that truly works. Either they are too expensive, or they are a bit glitchy, or it doesn't work. The challenge is how do I find the next?

Welcome to Where Are My Customers, brought to you by AeroChat and produced by Stridec. Okay, I think we are-

Hello.

We are on, right? Grace, thanks. And welcome, welcome on to our podcast.

How's everything? Thank you so much for having me, Alva. Yeah, everything's good.

It's been quite a busy week, but everything is quite exciting at the same time.

Lovely. You know what? In fact, I remember that first time that I, you know, got connected with you at Jeremiah's event, right?

I was taken by, you know, that whole bubbly, very positive, you know, attitude that the dev-vac that you bring to the, to the networking, which is why I thought, oh, that's something very interesting. And I wanted to understand more, which is why taking the opportunity of this podcast to actually learn more and share, you know, understand more about, you know, what you have been doing. So maybe for the benefit of, you know, those who are new to you, maybe can you give a quick intro of yourself and what you do?

Okay. Hi. Hi, everyone.

I'm Grace. I am a social media agency founder. My agency is called Content Hearts, and we started actually last year only in 2024.

But prior to starting this agency, I was actually working as a creative director for about 12 years in the big advertising agencies. Then something happened in 2023. I got retrenched and everything changed from there.

Then I started to see what else can I do besides like working in corporate. And the answer to that is starting my own agency. And instead of doing everything at the start, I chose to specifically focus on social media content creation alone.

So here I am now. And thanks for having me again, Alva. It was great to be connected with you.

Awesome. Grace, so you know, you talk about this whole change comes from the fact that you got retrenched. And I think it's a very relevant topic to talk about right now.

Because obviously, we've seen on the news, big tech companies are laying off people. You know, Meta is laying off and some of like TikTok. That's the most recent one.

I heard this couple of days ago, TikTok is also laying off some people. So retrenchment is a very relevant topic right now. And if you could share a bit more, because a lot of people probably relate to your story, right?

In terms of, you know, they have been incorporated for a long time and they suddenly got that retrenchment notice and they probably felt lost at what to do, you know, and maybe have doubts about self-worth. So share with us, how do you actually navigate? Can you bring us back to that moment, right?

Where you got that notice that you are being let go. How do you look at that situation? How do you then try to navigate and make sense of it and eventually found this direction that you're taking?

Yeah, for sure. Because I will be lying if I say that I got everything figured out the day that I found out I got retrenched. Because the truth was, I was like, I was in shock.

For me, for my case, in fact, right, I didn't know that I was going to get retrenched. Because in, there were no telltale signs. We thought that the business were, it wasn't doing so well, but it wasn't bad at the same time.

So we weren't like, actively looking for jobs already at that point of time. So I was definitely shocked. It took me a while to really get out of that, that feeling, that anxiety, that, wow, what happened now?

That kind of feeling, to actually center myself and think, okay, let's look at this. Like I have a few choices, right? I can go back to corporate again.

I can continue finding new jobs, or I can also start something that I've been passionate about, which was social media and content creation. So the thing was prior to, I mean, before I got retrenched, I was always doing content creation on the site. So I had this skincare content, skincare Instagram that I developed since the COVID pandemic time, and I enjoyed doing content creation so much.

I felt that there are certain areas in my day job that would overlap with the content creation. So I can do, I can design well, I can also come up with creative ideas. Because these are the things that I can immediately apply to content creation.

So I was having so much fun doing content creation on the side. Then when I eventually got retrenched, I was thinking to myself, okay, is there anything else that I can actually pursue instead of just finding another corporate job that might even lead to another retrenchment in the future? So that sort of thought led me to believe that, okay, maybe this is the right time.

Instead of continue pursuing corporate roles, I should pivot and try something else, try something new. Although it might be very small and unstable in the beginning, but I hope that by starting something on my own, I'm more irreplaceable in my own company rather than if I go to another corporate job. Yeah, that's my whole thought.

Well, thanks for sharing that. And I think that's kind of where probably a lot of people are thinking. You know, you said something about, you know, you're then in control, you won't be in a situation where you are going to be replaced again, right?

So I think that's that kind of is what a lot of people think about when they start something on their own, which is, you know, to really have full control over, you know, their destiny, what they want to do. But when you make that transition from being someone in a part of a larger organization and handling a lot of this much bigger accounts with much bigger campaigns, then moving into starting your own, doing your own agency work. What's the biggest difference in terms of, you know, could be interactions, could be the work, could be, you know, anything.

What are some of the biggest change or the biggest difference that you see when you make that transition from corporate to, to, you know, your own business?

Yeah, so for me, it's definitely having to do everything on my own. Prior to this, in corporate, I was a creative, right? So I was only taking care of the creative side of things.

I wasn't aware at all about the financial side, the business side, having to find new clients, having to manage the budget, having to pay manpower fee, the resources and all that. I wasn't aware about all these problems at all. So I was still in my lala land, the creative lala land, most of the time when I was in corporate roles.

And I could afford to do that because my role was only on the creative side. But now that I'm moving into a business owner, I have to take into consideration everything, not just the creative side, but also how we can get new clients at the same time, as well as like, how do I make the creative that I produce, generate more income, more revenue for my clients, so that we can justify our pricing, we can justify all the value that we give and all that. So definitely a lot more learnings in all aspects of the business, not just the creative, but also others as well.

Okay, which kind of neatly leads to the next thing I'm going to ask. By the way, you know the name of our podcast, right? The name is Where Are My Customers?

So that's the name of our podcast. And you were talking about now that you are transitioning into a business owner, you need to know how to market yourself, find customers, right? So exactly, like as an agency owner, as a business owner, right?

How do you go about finding your customers?

Yeah, I mean, everybody also wants to know, right?

Yeah, exactly.

For me, actually, I have quite a unique story, because back in 2024, I started posting about my retrenchment story on TikTok. And that post actually got pretty viral. So it garnered about like 350,000 views as of now.

And somehow the story got picked up by CNA Talking Point. And I was like invited to share about the story on live national TV. On live national TV, yeah.

So that's how I got started with the whole journey. From then on, I just kept sharing about my story on TikTok mostly, and sharing about what I could do, about like my agency, about the team that I'm building. And that's how I eventually managed to attract all the potential leads and all my clients.

So I would say for now, about 90% of our clients came from TikTok.

Okay. That's amazing. I kind of, at first when you're talking about your story got TikTok by CNA, right?

I half expected that, oh, you're going to say that the first thing is make sure you get on national TV. Like, okay, that's a big win. But it's interesting that you say right now, most of your leads are coming in from TikTok, right?

Does that mean that right now, the focus and the majority of your marketing efforts are on TikTok?

As of now, yes, on TikTok, because I haven't really spent much on ads. I haven't really spent, I mean, I had zero dollars on ads for now. So I really mainly focus on my organic content on TikTok.

And since this year, I've started like branching out into LinkedIn as well, but very recent efforts only. Yeah, so I would say most of our marketing efforts now is just sharing our stories, sharing our, my personal branding and sharing about what we can do on TikTok.

Okay. And that's interesting because we also have heard from business owners and even agencies, right, that try promoting themselves, try putting out content on TikTok, but they don't really seem to get results. They don't really seem to be able to get traction.

And, you know, so what kind of advice would you give to people who are, to businesses who are trying to develop their presence on TikTok and achieve some of the results, outcomes that you are currently enjoying?

I would say it's more of a content strategy. So even though we are posting on TikTok, there's always like a solid content strategy behind it. First of all, it's to leverage your own personal branding.

I would say that my personal branding, for my personal branding, the retrenchment story is a huge part of it. So I always leverage that into my storytelling to appeal or to resonate with a lot of people who are experiencing the same things. But on top of that, having just the retrenchment story alone isn't going to convert them into paying clients.

So what is actually going to convert them is more of my stories about my previous roles in the advertising industry. Because again, not everybody comes from big advertising agency background and has like more than a decade experience in advertising agency. So that's another thing that I can leverage into my content for people to know that, oh, I'm not just like a random retrenched person, but I also have like credibility in my past working life.

So these are the things that I always try to subtly include into all my contents for that people know that I have this kind of credibility. And yes, I'm retrenched, but at the same time, I also have been managing these brands. I've been managing these clients as well.

Yeah. And on top of that, I'm also sharing more thought pieces and thought leaderships about what I think is the future of the advertising industry and what I think is working the best in social media marketing at the moment. So this kind of thought leadership, for sure, they are not going to be viral or they are not going to be the ones that are like attracting millions of views, right?

But out of the, for example, 400 views that I'm getting, all 400 are mostly people that are already interested to work with me. And these people are already my target audience that I'm specifically looking out for. That's why, like, with all this combination of content strategy, of like personal branding, credibility, thought leadership piece, I am able to attract people, potential leads to want to see more about my company and what we offer.

And then eventually, from my thought leadership, they are able to be converted and think that, okay, maybe I have got something to offer, my agency has got something to offer that can help them. Yeah, so it's more like a content funnel sort of a thing.

Right, okay. I guess the old school marketing funnel still works. It's just that you need to put in the right ingredients for it to work.

Because these days, I'm sure a lot of people are putting out sensational pieces like, oh, marketing funnel is there, and there's the new kind of marketing and so on. But interestingly, you mentioned something about some of your content, even some of your TikTok pieces may not be viral, you know, 400 views. But again, 400 views is nothing to press down upon.

Some people don't even get 40 views for a piece, right? But I think the thing that I wanted to ask is, I'm sure you come across a lot of clients who will come to you and say, Hey, Grace, you know, I'm putting out content on my TikTok. How do I go viral?

Is that a question that you get a lot? And how do you then address or, you know, reframe that, you know, with people who ask you that?

Yeah, for sure. This has been a main struggle. I mean, not main struggle, but it's a struggle that we are facing quite a lot.

And most of it is due to a lack of education, right? Because we call these views likes, shares. It's more like vanity metrics that actually it's good to see, but it doesn't really help in conversion or it doesn't really actually help your business all that much.

So what we are trying to do is always try to educate our clients to look beyond the vanity metrics and focus on what matters the most in fulfilling their goals. So, for example, if their goal is more to establish a strong branding and establish like a very polished curator branding, then I feel that views doesn't matter as much. What matters more is having the aesthetic, the vibe, the look of the brand photography that would represent their branding the best.

So, different goals have different metrics for success, and it doesn't always necessarily meaning higher views in that sense. Yeah.

Okay. You also brought up something which I want to get into as well, about brands having a curated look, a curated posture. But we have also heard and seen in recent times, a lot of brands, entrepreneurs, founders, personalities, influencers, right?

Evocating this thing about being authentic, being raw, being unfiltered, right? Like, you know, this podcast, we position it as a very raw, unfiltered kind of conversation. What do you think about, are these two opposing schools of thought, in the sense that, you know, a brand needs to be polished, needs to be curated versus, okay, let's go raw, let's go unfiltered.

Is there a dichotomy and opposing, you know, in these two schools of thought? And where do you sit on this?

For me, I believe that it really depends on the product that you're selling, right? If I'm selling a handbag or like a fashion brand, I definitely have to showcase the products in the best possible way first. Because yes, we can always go towards the authentic employee-generated content style, but at the end of the day, your customers still have to know and be attracted to your products to actually buy them.

Yeah, that's where I think a lot of companies are missing the mark in that sense. Like they just focus on just EGC, just authentic content alone. Then they lose focus on their branding and who they're actually is.

So they would just do a bunch of random trends, but at the same time, they are not showcasing their products in the best way, and they are not showing the customer how their products want to be, their branding wants to be perceived. So that's the kind of pitfalls that I don't want my clients to be having. That's why from the start, we need to be clear on the goals and the objectives that we are trying to achieve first.

Like, if you are a fashion brand, if you are a product brand, then of course, you still need your curated stuff. But at the same time, if you want to appear as not a cold brand or not like a very fluffy brand or you want to be relatable, then of course, we can add in a bit of the authentic element to it. So everything can be seen as a more wholesome brand in general.

But if your branding is from the get-go, you are like somebody who's very approachable or your price point is very accessible to the masses, you are attracting like the Gen Zs or you are attracting someone that is the masses, then of course, yes, we can go towards full on the authentic route.

Okay. And just now, you also mentioned about employee UGC, right? And I think some of companies are also looking at, okay, can I get my staff to post things?

Like, for example, let's just jump over to LinkedIn, right? There will be some companies like, oh, let's get our staff to post about the company, about our business on LinkedIn, right? What do you think of such an approach?

Is it a good or a bad thing? And is there a way to navigate such? Because some employees might like it, some might be like, why do I have to do this?

And it feels false. So where's your stand on this?

So EGC, I mean, LinkedIn a little bit hard to... Because LinkedIn is naturally, it's a bit different for EGC style. But I would say maybe for TikTok or Instagram.

For me, EGC is always, is very good, like especially if you are a bigger company that has like a team. And if you have like more than three people on marketing team, of course, I would 100% advise them to do EGC. Because at the end of the day, people love to see similar faces day after day.

And having that facial recognition, the same team will actually help your branding, help your business. Then the challenge here is, first of all, to find employees that really embody your brand. Because you don't want to feature people that don't really embody your brand essence, then you will be seen as like, how come there's a disparate, and how come like it's not linked, so to speak.

Yeah. And also second challenge is again, like what you said, people, especially in Singapore, they're very resistant towards like showing their faces in front of the camera, and they would feel like, oh, how come this is not within my job scope? Like, why do I have to do this as well?

Then that's where agencies like us comes in, I believe. Like, so agencies like my agency is like the middle person between your company and your staff, so that if you have staff who are very resistant to appear in front of the camera, we are always there to help them, to coach them so that they are more comfortable, and that we will give them the ideas, we will give them what to do, and we will even like them, and help them to portray their best natural self in front of the camera, so that it doesn't appear very stiff or very awkward. Yeah, so I believe EGC is definitely good to have for your company, but if your staff is very resistant to it, I recommend that your brand can go to companies like ours, that would be the middle person to help that make it happen.

I thought for a moment you're gonna say, oh, then I'll be the pretend staff to do.

We had to do that like sometimes. Unfortunately, the truth is like a lot of the staff really, really don't want to appear in front of the camera, and that's where we have to step in. Yeah, I've seen that happen.

Like I had to get my team to pretend to be the staff, but it's not ideal. I would say that it's not ideal because at the end of the day, you want your brand to have... Yeah, you feature your own people.

You can't be, oh, I'm Grace, now for brand A, and I'm Grace again, of all brand B.

Exactly, exactly. If like keep using my face, I don't mind, but the customers who will have seen my face elsewhere will know that I'm not genuinely their staff, right? So it could backfire in a way.

No, which brings me to something that's actually also kind of related, and it's interesting that we talk about this, because if that's the case, right, and audience these days are smarter and smarter, more discerning, right? They know that, oh, you know, if Grace is representing brand A and then brand B and brand C, then Grace is not part of brand A, B or C. But isn't it the same with influencers, celebrities?

And what do you and how do you look at, you know, brands using celebrities and influencers for content? Is it still meaningful or like these days, it's just not effective anymore?

So I have to say that I have a client as well that works a lot with influencer, right? And she would tell me that the only way an influencer will work and will get good ROI is when the influencer actually believes in your product. So they don't just say it for the sake of an ad or pretend, but they actually love the product and want to use it in real life.

That's the only way where the influencer, their reach, their creativity, and their craft will come in to play. Because especially if they have like a huge following, and they really advocate for this product, it could actually do wonders for that. And I've seen that happen to one of my clients.

But the problem comes in when you hire influencers that don't really care about your product, and they are just doing it for a job. And that becomes inauthentic, and people can tell that they're just marketing this, because it's a job, it's a paid job. And that's where like you see the ROI is not there.

Like you would spend like thousands, $20,000 just to hire this influencer, but it's not converting because people can tell that you don't actually really like the product itself. That's how like customers are becoming smarter and smarter. They can't tell about all these things, to be honest.

I think that there's also a part of where some brands are not getting smarter. I don't know if you have come across this. You know, doing the Rock Johnson, right?

The the the Razzleton Hollywood star, right? Recently, there was this ad about him. It was a super joke, right?

Where he's the face of ambassador of a hair care product. I mean, how of brand can you be? You know, and obviously the Rock being the Rock, the brand probably paid through the roof, right?

Just to get his face on it.

Yeah.

But that's like, you know, how much can you believe in the Rock really believing in that product?

Yeah, exactly. Like some brands also must do their homework when they are choosing their influencer. Don't just see like pretty face, then okay, Ken, you need to see what they have been posting and whether it truly aligns with the product itself or not.

I guess that's where the authenticity part comes in. Because if the audience can tell, oh, yes, this product like really stands with everything this person have said before or what they truly believe in, then there's a higher chance that their following will convert and will consider that product as well. Yeah.

As we are talking right now, I find myself starting to have a mentality shift towards something that I previously didn't really believe in, right? Ironically, given that I'm in the AI space. So the thing that I'm talking about is actually AI avatars or more specifically, AI influencers.

Okay?

I'm sure you know there are certain brands that are starting to craft AI influencers for their marketing. Now, again, despite the fact that I'm very deep in AI myself, I actually don't really like the idea of AI influencers. I can't seem to find a reason why there should be a need for it.

But as you were sharing just now, and it kind of dawned to me that probably there is a reason for it because, you know, my, you know, there isn't good enough celebrities or influencers that fit the profile of my brand. And maybe because my staff are just camera shy, they just really don't want to be on camera. So where do you stand on this?

What's your take on AI influencers? Is it a good? Is it a bad thing?

And how they can be effectively deployed for marketing?

So I mean, I personally haven't found an AI influencer that truly works for our brand yet. Either they are too expensive or they are a bit glitchy, or it doesn't work in general for whatever reasons. But having said that, right, I feel that some people really cannot make it in front of the camera.

After training them, you get to the point where you're like, you know what? Okay, let's try another way. Maybe let's not put a face.

Have you ever come to that point?

For sure, for sure, for sure. Some people, I mean, I mean, at the end of the day, social media is very like a judgmental platform, right? Like, it's not just like how you look, actually.

Like, it's not 100% about how you look. You can be like a normal looking person, normal looking guy, but if your vibe is there, people will resonate with you. And this vibe thing is the thing that we can't teach.

But of course, I can hype you up and say, Hello, go Alva, hey! But at the end of the day, if your vibe is like, Hi, my name is... It just like won't attract any audience because people resonate with who you are, what you stand for, your vibe, the whole thing, the whole package.

And yes, having said that, true, like some people that really cannot make it in front of the camera, maybe it's better to shoot like a B-roll video instead, like show the hands or show the surrounding, or even like use like AI, maybe, you know the AI presenters, so you have the scripts and then they present for you. Maybe there will be a better solution for people who really, really cannot.

I think I came across some stock exchange apps, I won't name which one, I think I came across the ads of some stock exchange apps. Like you could tell it's an AI generated. They probably map it against some, you know, unwilling employee, but that whole presenter, the avatar is, you know, you can tell it's AI generated.

But you mentioned something about, you know, you come across certain AI influences that are expensive. Now that's a bit shocking to me. I thought one of the selling point of using AI influencer is supposedly to be cheaper because they can be generated by AI.

I don't quite understand where the expensive part is coming from.

Oh, I mean, I'm not very familiar in this. I mean, I haven't really done like a lot of research on this, but the ones that, the cheaper ones that I came across are like a bit buggy or they have certain limitations. So I would imagine if you want like a really seamless, very believable type of AI presenter, then it's going to cost a bit as compared to your own stuff.

If you are like forcing your own stuff, then it's free, but the quality is not there.

Which kind of brings back to if you need to spend so much time and effort to train an AI influencer to be as natural and as on point and as realistic. Yeah, probably it's easier to just get a human. Right.

Yeah. Why go through all the hassle of trying to make a machine look realistic when you like, why not just get a willing human? Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And some people like students and all these, they are not very expensive and they love to feature themselves in front of the camera.

So yeah, it's just how you manage to get this human in a smart way, I guess.

Yeah, but I like the fact that you now again bring up something that, you know, saves me the trouble of asking you, because that naturally leads me to something else that you brought up. You mentioned about young people, you know, I don't even know the terms anymore, like, you know, Gen Z, Merlinius or Alva, right? I don't know.

I don't even know what I am. But let's call it the young ones, right? The young people.

I think I'm old-foggy already, you know. I think I have a generational gap in terms of understanding. But how do you look at the young people these days and the way they communicate with social media?

But more importantly, from a business perspective, right? What is that difference in approach to their marketing content that will resonate more with the young people these days? Because they are going to be the ones that will go into the workforce.

They are the ones who are going to become the income earners, and they are going to be the purchasers in the future, right? So I assume it's probably going to be better to start grooming them and start priming them to be aware of your brand.

Yeah.

But what's that approach to market to them?

So most of my staff are Gen Zs, and they are very, very young. So I learned that their generation, they communicate differently, slightly differently from us, in a sense that they are very expressive in front of the camera. So they are not shy in front of the camera.

They are open to share like their thoughts. They are open to even speak in front of the camera, very, in a very natural way. And they are also like very expressive.

Like, for example, they have like a trend that they love doing. Then just do it. Just do it.

They don't think so much. Yeah. They don't think so much.

And those are the type of content, surprisingly, that does the best in TikTok, especially. The type of content that takes five minutes to do, instead of like the five hours shoot, surprisingly, the five-minute content always perform better. Or the ones that seems very unscripted or very like on the go, those are the ones that can perform the best for some reason.

So that's why Gen Z marketing kind of like does well, because it's just so random and so authentic that people, it's like a breath of fresh air as compared to the overly scripted approach. Yeah, but at the same time, my personal take is that these trends and these five-minute things isn't always good, because at the end of the day, you still have to bring your brand value and the brand USP through, and it can't be like showing just trend, trend, trend, and random stuff here and there. So that's how, that's where people like us who have experience in the corporate world comes in, to really angle some of the content towards more of like, okay, where does the brand comes from, and what part of the USP can we include here?

Those are the types of content that they are not so familiar with. Yeah, so they are more familiar with the fun, the explosive, the very like, fun content to watch, but not necessarily talking or selling your brand. Yeah, that's my aesthetic.

So, you know, I think these days on... I didn't see it on TikTok, but I saw it on YouTube Shorts, but I think it's blowing up everywhere. You know that bony guy from LC Science, right?

Alright.

Oh, yes, very funny.

So that has been... I mean, he's blowing up everywhere. People are saying he's the most popular guy on the internet right now.

So that to me is an example of where you can hijack or hook your audience in with random elements, but then hard pivot to selling your product. And the way he does it is, it breaks all marketing norms. Like the five second clips in front has nothing to do with the product, but he makes a hard pivot, and people are buying it.

I think the point I'm trying to make, and what I'm trying to ask is, it seems that a lot of the established marketing frameworks, a lot of established marketing storytelling that we used to do, seems to be breaking in all sorts of manners with a lot of all these different ways of content that's coming out. And I'm very sure that brands and even some marketers among us are flabbergasted, like, what's going on? What's your take?

And how do you think brands and even marketers should navigate in this seemingly environment of, we don't know what is working, we don't know what is not working?

You know why the LC guy works or not? It's because his personality. It's just because of him.

If I try to copy his style and apply it to my current client, I can tell you 100% it won't work. Because in order for that model to work, you have to have his vibe, the way he reacts, his sarcastic expression, everything has to come into play in order for this idea to work. So this idea, yes, it works very well for him because of who he is, because of how he behaves in front of the camera.

And it's something that we can't replicate for other clients. If we don't have him, basically the idea won't happen. If you put any other actors to replace him, I don't think that the idea will work as well.

So I would say that for this one, it's really a good job for him for finding this thing that actually works for him. But what we can do for other brands is to find what is specifically theirs that can work well in social media as well. And it might not be like copy-paste.

Yeah, you have to find a way that would work, that would fit your current talent pool. That would fit the current staff and that would fit your overall branding and your overall product as well. Yeah, that's the hard part, the challenge here.

Yeah, so, yeah, I agree with you now that you said, obviously, any other brand right now following the thing style would just be, you know, branded as, oh, you're just a copycat, right? And you definitely won't get the kind of response.

Yeah.

Now, I'm not sure, I haven't really researched it, but I don't think Tony is the owner of the business. He just happens to be very good in front of a camera. But what do you say to that, you know, a lot of business owners, maybe they are solo premieres or they're just starting out.

Or they, like what you say, you know, they really don't have employees who are able to be natural, be having that vibe in front of camera. And they're seeing all these examples of marketing blowing up, right? So they're thinking, okay, do I have to then do personal branding?

Do I have to then personally bring myself out there, right? Which we kind of talked about just now, like I'm doing my version of personal branding on LinkedIn, and you're starting to do that. You have success, we've done it on TikTok.

So what's your take on it? Is it something that business owners just have no choice but to dive into or?

Yeah, for sure. 100%. I mean, I would say that as a founder, if you really don't have anybody, then you have to share whatever you have to showcase more or to bring awareness to your brand.

If you're not sharing about your own story, you're not sharing about your product, then who is going to share about it? Like, nobody. So especially when, like, if you're a founder, like, starting a business or building a product, people always love to see how you got started, what made you want to start this product.

And they also want to see the journey. So nowadays, the kind of content that does very well is founders who are letting people in into the journey of creating the product itself. So the product doesn't have to be launched yet, but people are invested in her story.

People are invested in the way this product is being produced, even not just the successes, but also the failures, the trial and errors, the mistakes that they face along the way. People are loving this kind of content from the founder. And when you see about the trend, like seeing the LC sign guy, like do I have to follow the same format?

Absolutely not. Like again, you have to find something that works that is authentically yourself as a founder. Like for me, I'm not the funny person.

I don't think I can do the LC style well. So I'll try to find something that would resonate well with my personality and my own branding. And similarly to yours, if you feel like you are more of a funny person, you like to do skits and comedies, why not try that and maybe it will work for you?

Every person has got different ways.

I kind of realized that, especially with my recent LinkedIn post, I've become more sarcastic. The problem is, if you read some of the comments like, yeah, you didn't get the post at all. Some of the sarcasm just flew right over their head.

Yeah, which is funny. But because when I saw you in person, I thought you were like a serious person. But when I read all your LinkedIn posts, it's like, hey, this guy is actually very funny.

Yeah, like I think having that authenticity about you and showcasing your personality always helps in marketing yourself.

That's a challenge for me. I'm a Gemini. So I have two sides.

And that's probably why when you first saw me, it's like, oh, it's serious. That's one side. But when it comes to the online stuff, then the other crazy part, Tim, comes up.

But on personal branding, where we talk about being authentic, sharing stories, including vulnerability, and I largely agree with what you say, and those are very good emotional core to tie the brand to. But again, this is just me, and I might be... I might be...

How should I put it? I might be disturbing some people here. Do you find that some people actually share too much?

Like, you know, they take the personal part of branding way too personal. Like, sharing things like, yeah, maybe we don't really need to know about this.

Yeah. Uh, I see. I get what you mean.

Um, I haven't really come across a lot of people like that, especially on LinkedIn. Uh, but I feel that, um, there's always certain parts of you that don't need to be shared online. Like for myself, I don't really, um, share about my, my husband and my family, because I just feel like it doesn't really link to what I do.

So I don't really share much about that. So, like, um, I will share a lot and be vulnerable over business related stuff, rejection of entrepreneurship, uh, corporate life. But there's other parts of me that I try to keep private.

And I feel that that should be the way for other entrepreneurs as well, or creators, whether on LinkedIn, on TikTok, like keep some parts of you still private. Like we don't need to know everything, especially if it doesn't add value to whatever you're selling. So it's, it's no, no point.

Unless you just want the views or you just want the attention, then yeah, it's okay.

I guess that could be, that could be another thing. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes I just want to like, you know, get the likes, attention and all that, which can be, can be like, um, encouraging, can be fun as well. Yeah.

You know, what's my, my thief on this, it's actually not the personal sharing part. It's not the personal, because I can understand for some, um, content creators or some people building their personal brand on social media, right? I can understand that a large part of who they are, a large part of their story actually come from that personal vulnerability, that personal emotion.

So I totally get why they need to say it. My problem, and this is going to ruffle a lot of people. My problem is, why do we have to keep repeating it?

Right?

Like two years, three years from now, you're still repeating the same emotional bit. I mean, come on, get over it. We get it.

You know, we get the trauma, but it has been three years since that story broke. Like, are you still stuck? Are you still stuck in where you are?

Get over it.

Actually, I have like positive and negative take on that. Like, I feel that because that's such a huge part of their personal brand story, right? Like, like how, like Spider-Man always tell about the death of the uncle.

Yeah.

That is gonna be like always part of you. Um, but at the same time, yeah, a lot of your followers who have been following you from the start will get tired of the story over and over again. Uh, which is why, like for myself, I'm also facing the same, like, uh, dilemma.

Like, I want to keep sharing about my retrenchment, but at the same time, I feel like there are some people who are already bored and tired of it. So that's, uh, but like, how do I pivot from here to find another thing that people resonate with is also a challenge. Yeah.

Sometimes like when people follow you because of your retrenchment story, for example, then you kind of think like people will expect you to keep sharing about retrenchment because those are the ones that's going to get the most likes, the most, um, views, the most like comments, right? And then you'll feel like, okay, maybe I should just keep sharing about this story. Yeah.

So I guess there's no wrong and right answer. I wouldn't say that these people are doing something wrong with constantly sharing the same story. Maybe those are the ones that perform the best.

But, uh, I guess the challenge is how do I find the next interesting thing that I can pivot that would get the same reaction and get the same success as my original story. That's, uh, that's something that I have yet to find as well.

But on that, on that, on that thread, right? Do you think that it probably has better, for lack of a better word, okay, I'm going to rephrase it in a different way. On that track, would you think that actually, what your audience or any audience, for that matter, right?

Probably they are also more interested and more invested in the growth journey, rather than revisiting the origin story over and over again. Like you mentioned about Spider-Man, right? Yes.

The Uncle Ben or the Aunt May, that death and that whole lesson that he learned from it, right? Yes, it's a pivotal part of why Peter Parker is Spider-Man. But a lot of what we are invested in as an audience or as people who like Spider-Man, it's how you grow and evolve in your journey, in your new adventures, right?

Yeah.

So wouldn't that be a better path? Yes, you still have your origin story. Nobody's going to take away from that, right?

But wouldn't audience be more interested and invested in how you take that energy, how you take that, you know, initial motivation to then grow along the way? Wouldn't the growth journey be more exciting and more worthy of rooting? That's something I'm trying to, yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I think I, your sentiment just now also bring out like a a new thought in me as well, that I haven't thought before. Like we see creators like that has five-minute fame, like, Uncle Roger, for example, like the fried rice thing, right?

But then he didn't keep talking about fried rice again, he ventured into other food critic, and then now he ventured into his own restaurant. So it's, there's a growth there that people are interested to see. And also another retrenchment turn content creator that I really love, Chloe Shi from the US.

Yeah, she was really, she got viral for recording her termination. Oh, that one. She recorded.

Yeah. She was working at like, what are, like, very high-end back company. I can't remember what's the name.

Discord. I think Discord. Yeah.

Then she recorded herself getting terminated. Then that video went viral, but now she is pivoting to create like very cinematic, very nicely produced videos and people are loving it. So as what you said just now, yes, people are interested to see the growth, the journey and how much you have diverted from that initial starting point.

And I do believe in that as well. I guess the challenge is now is, it's extremely hard to find that thing that people are still interested in seeing after your origin story has passed. Yeah, that thing is very hard to find.

That's why we don't see a lot of creators who can make it past their 5-minute fame.

Okay, true, true. By the way, you talk about Uncle Roger. Have you tried his restaurant at Pavilion KL?

No, not yet. I have seen a lot of people reviewing it, and they say it's okay only. They say they're like, it's all right, it's all right.

Yeah, I mean, you go there more for the fame rather than the quality of the food, right? But I mean, again, being an influencer himself, he's quite smart in when he was rolling it out, he invited a lot of the influencers, YouTubers in Malaysia and even beyond to actually... And of course, leveraging on his fame, he invited quite a few of those celebrity types, right?

So, I mean, he knows marketing.

Yeah, I think he's done that very successfully, like how he pivot from just one viral video into the empire that he has now. I think it takes skill, honestly, it takes skill and really knowledge of the marketing and branding as well.

But I think the story that a lot of people didn't really catch on, right, is for him, it also took a lot of persistence and try and error because Uncle Roger wasn't his first persona. So I think he tried a few things, you know, and didn't really blew up. Uncle Roger was the persona that blew up for Nigel.

Yeah. And of course, good for him because he did have a few years where, you know, nothing was really going on. So I think a lot of people missed the story of it's actually the persistence.

It's actually the not giving up despite that you have tried this, you have tried that. Yeah. So I mean, good for him.

But one thing I would definitely not want him to change or pivot from is continuing to bash Jamie Oliver. He dropped a new video. He dropped a new video, I think a few days ago, which I had caught.

Again, bashing Jamie Oliver, because Jamie Oliver was doing his take on the Vietnamese fur. Oh, wow.

Asking for it.

Asking for it, really asking for it. And my wife is Vietnamese, so I purposely show her. I'm like, this will make her crazy for sure.

Again, because I'm married to a Vietnamese, so I have my fair sense of Vietnamese food culture. And I look at Jamie Oliver, the way he does it is like, yeah.

Confirm. Confirm.

Confirm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, he's, again, you also got to wonder, right? I mean, obviously, Jamie is not oblivious to the fact that everybody is trolling him about his lack of awareness when it comes to Asian food cuisine, right? At some point, I can't help wondering, right?

Like, you don't know, or you think that bad publicity is actually good publicity?

I think maybe the second, I mean, for sure, from the first video that Uncle Roger made, I'm sure he knew from the start already. But maybe his PR team advised him, yeah, it's still publicity. Without Uncle Roger, maybe he's even more like passe or forgotten.

Could be, could be.

Yeah, could be.

They were like, you might as well milk it.

Yeah, correct, correct. But you brought upon a very interesting topic here as well of like, Uncle Roger managed to find that persona that is different, and yet it resonates with so many Asians, right? About like us bashing the wrong cooking techniques or whatever.

That is like something that is truly like fresh and truly like original. And that's why we all love the Uncle Roger persona so much. And I guess this is also like our journey as a brand.

Like every, I feel like every brand kind of need to find that Uncle Roger genius, genius aspect themselves as well. Like Duolingo found it, but doesn't mean that you have to copy what Duolingo find. Yeah, like you have to find your own, like creative genius of how you are able to bring your business in a way that is unforgettable in front of your customers.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think that's kind of exactly what all of us are trying to harness, right? Find that lightning in the bottle where, oh, it speaks to our brand, it speaks to us naturally, and yet it resonates with the audience that we are trying to cultivate and to bring our business forward.

Yeah, and easier said than done, but we just have to keep trying, right?

But I mean, the good news is, I guess, you don't have to get to the level of virality, like Uncle Roger or Duolingo, to be able to make customers. Like even with like 1,000 views, even with like low level virality, you can already get like a few customers already. So, we don't have to always look at like, whoa, the top or the super successful stories.

We can also like, you know, keep trying and keep pushing towards that, while at the same time refining what we have to offer already. Yeah.

Yeah. Most important is to build our own stories and be able to tell our own stories.

Correct. And it doesn't even have to like get viral or really be picked up by the mainstream media. It doesn't have to be.

It can be like snow and steady and just like, then you'll be attracting like maybe a few people, but those are the people that are truly invested and truly aligned with you. I think that's good enough to start. And from then on, it's how much you want to be intentional with your content, how much marketing, like intentional marketing you want to do to bring your business forward.

I think that is more valuable than leveraging on that like viral moment or really like something super different that honestly not many can achieve.

Cool. Alright. And well, with that, I think we have come to the end of the conversation.

But it was a very interesting and insightful, and reaching conversation, I learned quite a fair bit, because we, I mean, I'm not very familiar with TikTok, but the ways you bring it across, yeah, that's something that definitely has an element of strategy and have an element of intention to it. So thanks for sharing. And hope to bring you on for another episode sometime down the road for more sharing.

And with that, thank you for your time today.

Thank you, Alva. And hope we can meet again sometime in the future. And always happy to be talking to you.

Yeah.

For sure, right, cool. All right, thank you.

Thank you, bye bye.

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