00:00 when you see this if you see this are you going to click on it no you going to you going to Swip away I to like hgbd CLA and all that everybody can write welcome to where are my customers brought to you by aroch and produced by stri okay uh thank you water for coming

00:19 on to our where are my customers podcast and so for the benefit of the audience who's going to listen in on this uh can you do a quick introduction of yourself and what do you do hi uh my name is Walter I'm the founder of Kuda SES we are a boutique size agency focus on

00:40content marketing SEO social media marketing uh we also help our CLI to build websites um we we have a whole range of CLI can say from hospitals to hotels um we also did some work for e-commerce clients as well and uh we um I'm also a trainer so I do uh training in topics like social media marketing

01:02content marketing uh storytelling and uh to dat I think uh we have close to 120 clients that we work with um I also have uh coming to about 7,000 trainy so I've been in the market for quite a bit uh maybe about 10 about 10 and a half years since I left corporate uh to to start a

01:26own gate like this yeah oh yeah so what actually what one of the reason why I brought you onto the show and wanted to learn more right is you know like what you said there is there's a very fascinating path that you have taken well first of all the the the statistic

01:41that really got to me was the 7,000 students right and at that was like pretty much I would say that quite a fair bit of the marketers in Singapore right now are actually your right so that sounds really interesting um but so the thing that I'm really interested to uh find out more about right is you

02:01mentioned that you were previously from corporate and then and started this journey into entrepreneurship and becoming owner about 10 plus years ago right so can you sh a bit of you know what prompted you to do that and before that you know what what was that situation like in in corporate and verus

02:17now as you know and what made you decided that you wanted to actually come into this space and your own L uh prior to that I was working in the public sector as the Director of corporate coms in various government agencies so as in the National Heritage Board uh and then

02:36later on in IRAs Inlet Revenue authority of Singapore yeah but what happened in 2005 uh was I started blogging so blogs were the first you could see the first form of social media back then we used terms like uh Web 2.0 you know uh social media was known as New Media uh uh chat back then was

03:00MC you know internet Rel oh you're old enough to this I IQ IQ was where I got to uh I got to uh cultivate my relationship with my wife today back thenf wow I the night original online origal before Tinder and anything else right right so so I was experimenting with uh BL and then when social media

03:31came on board like Facebook uh Instagram linkoln YouTube uh Twitter I created accounts in every one of them because I was pretty early back then um so I was able to like build a following like back then it was a very small community we all knew each other so I know Mr Brown uh then

03:48Mr kind of not not really but um uh I was able to grow a committee then and uh when I I guess about 9 years later in 2014 I decided to uh leave my job uh because I I guess I felt I wasn't really growing uh working in uh public sector and I wanted to also explore a little bit to

04:13see where this online social media thing could carry me and that was a you know uh the start of Adventures where I I did all kinds of things so I I did some uh at J lecturing at Poly Technic in Republic po uh I also was a uh contract stuff for uh various agencies but that's

04:34where I learned things from them as well and experimented so along the way that uh we uh I I pick up some skills I I learned oh what to do what not to do uh did some page so it it started with everything organic so as organic social media organic content uh back there I

04:52didn't know anything about SEO but as I learned by SEO or such G optimization I I improve it and that helped to bring in more and more leads and so uh eventually uh I I started my own agency initially a s providership but later on uh private limited and then we could attract

05:10clients that we yeah so but it's interesting when you say that you know when you were starting blogging and and yeah I know that's like original social media as you call it right so you you you were familiar with people like Mr Brown Mr Miyagi you know and all this so

05:26but the interesting thing is most in fact all of them they will a celebrity or personal brand around Persona you didn't you choose not to do that and and it actually went into providing Services freelancing servicing other businesses eventually creating the agency that you

05:45have right now what was that uh yeah what was that what was that decision or you know what what that okay I um I been and and you're I don't I don't get a sh you don't get a sh I I I guess I I didn't really see myself as a lifestyle uh influence uh I'm to get invited it was quite fun you know I I I

06:21attend these uh restaurant openings hotels uh Coca colola even flew me to the Shanghai world expore you know uh business class everything and uh I went to block about it but uh I think it came to a point where I realized that the the lifestyle uh content creation space was

06:41was very crowded and and being uh back there was already like in my 40s and 50s I realized it's a bit difficult for people of my vintage to compete against all the you know the out there um who who who could look you know a lot better than I oh they the other thing is also I uh I kind I love

07:03to uh read uh to listen to podcast and to write about stuff that's happening in the business World specifically in the topics of uh social media um in uh marketing psychology which is still an area of interest for me in content marketing and then later on also in SEO

07:23and and that was where I saw uh that I could sort of cover a niche for myself a little bit different from uh from let's say being a a travel blogger or a a food blogger which wasn't quite my cup tea yeah so so I eventually kind of like shifted more towards a B2B content and I

07:42found that that could be helpful too in attracting PL to myself or to my agency okay so like then when you move into that space of providing your services and inv agency right of course everybody starts somewhere so when you first started right how do you go about

08:03you know getting customers how do you go about you know bringing attention to you and your agency that the people are willing to to work with you I think a lot of it is uh like I say was all organic even to today we don't really advertise or go out to get customers I I

08:21feel that because of the content that we produce on our website that sh on social media then it kind of reson miix with uh client uh particularly on Linkin uh I guess being a trainer also helps because when you are a trainer and you share certain um certain insights

08:39certain tips and techniques then uh um when there are Learners who may need a bit more extra help they could approach you so so those are the ways in which they approach me and and of course being such an evid and uh content consumer I would even say that I I'm a uh uh I

08:59don't information junky you could call that so I consume a lot so I read and I I kind of find out what's happening a lot and and I and I try to reproduce what I learned usually in the form of an article now I try to do videos as you can see on Tik Tok um and by doing so I

09:16I could kind of build a following and and people maybe they they trust me and they say hey know maybe this guy knows a tick or tool and that's where then they approach me uh to assist them with uh the different parts of dig marketing so you also mentioned about you know some

09:32of the students that helps which is a nice segue to the next thing I actually wanted to learn about and of course as you know we we kind of got to know each other because of equinet right thanks of uh the whole coaching or trainer experience um but I'm very fascinated by the fact that you have

09:54been doing it for more than 10 years right and you have again mounted of students yeah but going back to where it first started right did you almost immediately started into this training or you were running your Agency for a few years before you you you you embark on this uh tra trainer Journey

10:17was what was that what were some of those considerations that of made you decided that you because like for example for myself again you know we are both agency owners it's all always taking off time off our business right and in my case when the approach me to to do the thing

10:38I was kind of in in a state where my agency operations are more or less automated I don't really spend that much time there already which gives me the opportunity to actually you know go and try something new yeah going back to your situation when you were you know

10:56back 10 years ago what was that situ situation like or you maybe you can just share with us from that sure sure so so because I left uh corporate work in 20140 and I went through I I would say over about 2 years at 2014 15 16 it was kind of like a figuring out what I want

11:18to do stage I mean we had about between my wife and I we we had about one years uh uh I would maybe like a a block of cash that we set Su so this year one year we try experimenting different things and we see if we can we can ear the livelihood right of te one year turn

11:36into 10 years but uh you never know right when you quit from a corporate job so I wanted to try out different things and the only thing I told myself is uh nothing better than py so so when de approached me uh through Lincoln because I was posting stuff quite regularly

11:53there uh in fact my my uh my first agency opportunity also came from there so was another agency own who approach me and hey they need somebody to do social media and they they notice that I'm PR active on social media so back then back there was blogs was you know

12:08Facebook uh LinkedIn Instagram and all that so I said okay why not I just try and I realized here I've got a neck for this um the the training thing agency thing uh mean prior to that I I when I was working in uh Communications or PR I've always had to work with teams or

12:27people I always had to do presentations in public uh be interviewed by the media so some I'm pretty comfortable with people in general and and I thought that hey this training thing isn't too bad I mean I kind of enjoyed it I like to RCT to people share what I know and at the

12:44same time because I I uh I I continue to acquire a lot of knowledge and information so so it's a it's a channel for me to to kind of share hey you know I discovered this cool thing you know maybe you should try this or you know you do know that the latest in this is that and you know perhaps that's

13:00something that you want to do so other than just sharing content on my blog or on social media by going to training I could actually go a lot more in dep into the topics of interest and and also be able to see how what are the challenges that my students May face and how these

13:22can be overcome I mean like I guess I mean you as an entrepreneur as well we we always in the problem solving mode and I enjoy solving uh such problems or challenges uh especially if it's not so straightforward I mean if it's easy everybody else will do it right but sometimes something that been more

13:43challenging they they you have to Great research and find up and try experiment and so that that that's something that uh gives me a lot of uh Joy now what what was interesting for me right and this is the first time I'm hearing it from you was that D approach you on linkoln which

14:04tells me that you have been active on Linkin for that you are actually B right yes and participated on this exactly we created account way back when never really got to the whole on but it was interesting because you say that you know you approach 10 years back and

14:30again obviously that's how L uh Dylan got in touch with me as well through Linkedin you mentioned that one of your first client uh contacted you via Linkin right yes that's right just a quick one for all the folks that's listening out there your Linkin game because you do

14:51get business you do get deals you do get opportunities from Linkin absolutely whoever is still UND decided about whether they should grow a personal on link after hearing this better go and do it yeah we we we are examples ourself of how how you know we are uh we got new

15:12opportunities and from link so yes that that's very interesting and but was there was there like um of a transition in mindset uh or certain mentality that you overcome when in because when as an agency service provider we're just providing service a lot of times we

15:36don't really need to be very precise on the knowledge transfer right if you get what I mean so was that are a challenge for you to okay now I need to document this in a clearer manner I need to be able to you know uh translate what I do to someone so that they can also

15:57eventually do it how how do you do you face that and how neutr that yeah yeah I think the the the challenge was how to guide the Learners so as a trainer you have to guide them step by step what to do step one step two step three and for me I I was inspired by a few uh influencers or

16:22rather taught leaders SL U what do they call Key opinion leaders is it K's yeah so in my space in social media um I don't know you heard of Mari Smith so she is like the queen of Facebook I noticed that one thing that she does is she does this screenshots of the the

16:39different tools and then she has this like arrow pointing okay here know Point here point there and then a bit like the uh the science uh uh biology diagram point point there aomy is yeah yeah yeah so so like uh so so so I thought that was quite a good way to show leers I try to adapt that in

17:05my materials as well so so I do a screenshot and uh I I will tell them okay this you know I point here this Arrow this button means what that button means what and and in a way that helps to make it easier for Learners to visualize a more visualization of the process CU one thing I realize in

17:24training is that um because we're dealing with uh interfaces right we're dealing with platforms and tools and uh sometimes it's very hard for Learners to remember oh I'm supposed to click here then click there and click here so I do all this I mean it's very ping like

17:42especially is is the interfaces keep changing all the time you know yeah but but that helps like in a way to kind of like uh guide them through systematically yeah and I mean the other thing for me is because I I was a communicator before this so I was in coms and uh we do lots of writing we do

18:01add reports I do add reports we do charts we do um uh speeches uh we do like sh little blps here and there we do infographics so already in that that way that kind of uh information architecture you know mindset was it uh was what I have and I wanted and I find that you know in

18:24training that also helps you know if you can present the the information in a way that is uh systematic and well articulated then it's kind easier for Learners to follow on right right right okay well that's interesting okay so in the span of 10 years surely that there probably will be

18:42some moments where you know it validates ah this is the reason why I want to be a Trader this is the reason why I want to be a coach right and there are probably also moments where you'll go like damn it some of these moments where you can share you know to your your entire

19:03teaching Journey yeah I I mean for happy moments are when my students or my Learners do better than me and there have been quite a few who are doing really well especially on the uh the newer channels like Tik Tok or Instagram and I'm so happy for them I mean I've I've got a learner who who she's on

19:22Instagram she does this uh painting on Lether back side it's a each from this painting called cost like $2,000 $3,000 it's very expensive I mean we talk about lb backs and uh she's fully booked until like don't know how many months in advance and and I feel that that is

19:39really uh very heartening to know uh a testament that whatever that I've taught them they have applied of course there will be a lot of frustrations as well especially with um when you have Learners who who don't really apply what they've learned or they they just

19:58continue to do things the way they do even after going through the cost so so you know one of the things that I always tell people is in social media marketing you have to be fairly consistent and you have to also provide value it's not just about trying to push and pitch a product

20:14it's not just about sales Sal sales even if you are an e-commerce uh business owner right you you want to be able to position your product in the form of a solution to a problem that somebody May face and and uh and sometimes you may also just just share knowledge or information Fring

20:37without asking for something in return and and so I find that sometimes it's a bit difficult especially for small business owners they are very very anxious about getting the product off the ground and to sell but they they don't spend enough time building their

20:53brand and and so when they know launched their shop so I was had a letter he had this I think was a Drop Shipping P of e-commerce shop you know he got all kinds of different products you know like from uh from drones to water bottles to uh I don't know some uh like

21:13massage massage things like it's it's like Chapan everything under the side what's your shock about uh I I so so he say I I try to sell those things that people like to buy then I go to the website there's no about us there's no like uh fre ask questions we talk about

21:30uh the delivery dates the shipping information and when you look at the photos on the eCommerce shop um they only have one photo you can't see like different sides of it you don't have things like the sizes the dimensions the weights and all that so so I I told him

21:48that maybe instead of trying to sell so many different things why don't you just focus on the specific age and and the other thing is that in this day and age if you want to use social media to sell a product you really have to record a video just one static thing not enough

22:05you must record a video show how the product is being used you got to w w the bit you know um because that that seems to be the way it's going so so that was one of those frustrating moments that I face when you talk about video right um and obviously like I mentioned you know

22:23if it's b2c if it's consumer I agree you you can't run away from video what about B2B does that also work for B2B is it is it something that's becoming very important because I also have B2B clients um that are very still resistant and and probably even more resistant

22:42than consumer brands in putting their face out there putting more video content so what's your take on it I feel that increasingly um I mean I just heard on the podcast that over 80% of the content being consumed on the internet are videos this days literally videos are obliterating all other forms

23:04of content which is very sad for me because I'm a right I still I totally share opinion like I that talk in front of camer yeah um so so I feel that for B2B if the company can do it they should try to to uh record videos that try to troubleshoot certain problems or issues

23:35that uh clients May face even a software company can record a video maybe it can be a walk through of the features of the software because people are always looking for that maybe it can be a specific function or feature of that software I think some of the um you know

23:53the software companies that that we use like Sam rush for example Sam rush or ARF they have a very good YouTube channel where they actually show you okay how how you can solve maybe an SEO problem at the same time they walk you through the tool step one step two step

24:08three and this is actually more useful than say maybe a very long 2,000 3,000 would article I mean I'm not I'm not saying that articles don't work they still do but you have to make your content uh a lot more visual so that somebody who is watching it knows exactly what to do next and where to go

24:28so so I'll say that even for B2B uh videos will work for manufacturing companies uh most definitely helpful if you can show videos of your production line of the uh the the R&D process all this has to build credibility um for marketing company I mean marketing agencies that our I guess

24:52I guess uh I'm trying to do some of that on Tik Tok I don't know like like doing some walkthroughs and all that yeah this is why we are doing the podcast yeah yeah maybe maybe we you do Post production you overlay some some like screenshots production no but you're right and and

25:17again um students of yours I I imagine a Fab of your students are business owners himself are or marketers or businesses right and when you see them com coming to your causes learning how to do marketing obviously I I assume it's for the purpose of marketing their

25:35businesses but based on your experience when you see such students and also your clients when they come to you it some most common mistakes you see businesses make when they try to connect with their target um I I feel the visual part is usually uh lacking so when it comes to

25:60especially now with AI tools like check gbd CLA and all that uh everybody can write you know but the visual part they they may just take some materials from uh HQ or Brer right they just and they just reproduce the brocher online into an image so you have all this like uh uh

26:21small small words text then you have a you have a QR code on the image on the on on social media their website you know but I I was telling people your QR code how are they going to scan it they look at mobile phone how you scan oh and uh and they have also um you know the

26:39way it's designed it really looks I add straight away so I always tell uh both my Learners as why as my clients when you see this if you see this are you going to click on it nor you going to you going to swipe away because it doesn't look like it's it it is it's going to be useful or interesting

26:55they're just trying to sell you a product and so that's what one of the most common issues that I see they they're too focused on on selling on trying to push something and and and is they're using the the traditional marketing uh brochure or newspaper advertisement and just plock it into the

27:15online World which which which doesn't quite work that way yeah so that's one of issue I and that thing is also uh patience right um they want thing fast and good and cheap right and they want uh they they don't to spend too to much money on ads uh so so some they hire one

27:35person then the poor guy or girl have to like P you know manage the whole Spectrum from SEO to social media to content marketing to digital we have quite a few of these Learners they come to Academy right then they go to all the different after they know so much work to

27:52do you my boss is crazy that say you ask your boss come for course then your boss will know right what why Eed yeah so unrealistic expectation they want to scream and save but you know the the frustrating thing is these people will still spend money what 20 20,000 $30,000 do a radio app

28:10they say how you do the radio app for what you know I mean nothing against radio but um that that money will just like go p and then the drivers listen radio and then it's gone ready right so so I think there's a need to kind of like shift the WX sometimes even even if

28:28the Learners are willing maybe they may face challenges with their bosses that you know they they may not want to invest in that amount so like for example if right now a client or learner C slate very open right and whatever you say they uh you know in ideal scenario agency we love

28:51this ideal clients okay they would just Implement whatever you say right how would then you advise them what would be the what would be that road map for them to actually move forward in the current market climate right to best stand up for the competition yeah I I mean f first I will

29:13want to do some audit of their current online channels if they are willing to share information or data so what do they have right do they have an existing website is it SE optimized does it look quickly on the mobile phone so that's one of the basic things um we look at

29:33their social media accounts as well do they have social media accounts uh do they have an email mailing list and also if they have any kind of analytics uh built in I mean you'll be surprised some of them they website they don't have a they don't check analytics at all so so

29:52those are some of the basics and then I also I will also look at the competition out there so we will study the landscape to see how are the competitors doing where are the competitors on and uh then from there we can make some recommendations to the prospect okay

30:10maybe these are some of things that you should do I think the other thing we ought to look at is also whether they have what we call a full funnel uh marketing build you know do they have the different stages sorted out from awareness to consideration to conversion to loyalty

30:28uh do they know where the leakages are and if uh if they don't then I think that's something that we want to help them we won't Deep dive into it to see uh whether they have that or notot I mean chances usually are from our experience most of them they may not be spending enough on Advertising so so

30:51they're trying to do everything organically trying to save money but in the end they actually spend a lot of time and effort on on like for example they may post you know every day for example but nobody's looking at a post on social media then that will be a waste of time and effort so typically we

31:10go through a structured process like this uh and then from there then we can deern whether um do they really need the full spectrum of digital marketing services or Are there specific areas that we want to focus on of course we also look at the budgets because um sometimes especially for small small

31:28small businesses they may not have the amount of money that's needed to execute a a full step marketing so maybe they just Implement part out B and that's fine as well so long as we are confident that we can do it for them so are you okay so on on the on the there are so many channels right are you

31:48more towards you know for example some of these uh entrepreneur gurus or influencers you know like for example Alex OSI right talks about you know focusing on one channel and doing it until you get like a million dollars and you get a million dollar from that channel and then do it better before you

32:04move on or you're more you're more in the camp of like Gary ve just B on every channel and you know get as much out of it where where we sit on this I I'm more like Gary ve uh because I believe that uh your customers will have uh different touch points and they need to hear see

32:28you you read about you across different channels before a buy position is made so um like for for instance there are some people on Tik Tok you know because Tik Tok is so hot so popular now right they they are very aggressive on Tik Tok they post sometimes even two to three

32:43times a day okay we talking about videos including like post production adding in the bells and whistles shoot different angles and all that uh and they they and uh when you go to their Tik Tok accounts there's no website there's no other channels uh I I feel that it's very

32:59risky because you are putting all your eggs into one basket what happens if for example TI Tok shut down which may happen you know uh it's only a temporary repri right in the US right you know uh so so that a bit risky and also I don't think that especially for B2B

33:21right customers don't make a decision just by a single point of contact oh they saw your video on Tik Tok or they saw your lcking post that's what they comod they want to do more research in fact I'll say that by the time they come to you they have already done a fair

33:37amount of research they went to your website they read something about you they saw your video or your post or your image or maybe maybe somebody else wrote about you somewhere so so they in their mind they have got some idea about what you can do uh before they approach you

33:54and I find that this is increasingly more and more so especially when we get to the younger and younger Generations right we talk about uh Gen Y or gen Z's uh they will spend a lot of time doing the pre-work like the research before they approach anybody um because they

34:10they're more comfortable doing that rather than just a phone call the way yeah so so I find that uh it's better to spread your eggs over many baskets alling be but of course U you don't have to to be as frantic as him in producing so much content he does have a full-time

34:28uh video crew following him around everywhere he goes so uh even in the car you know so Gary ve has this I'm sure you know right so you follow him yeah I think from the moment he leave the house until he yeah practically documenting his whole life which I mean you know way

34:45that's you turn out a lot of content but it's PR not possible for a lot of business owners yeah correct correct yeah yeah you me okay you you mentioned just now right that of course these days you you talk about content creation and then obviously now there AI That's

35:04hgp and definitely all businesses are being impacted so what's your take on it I mean obviously as an AG owner and in marketing definitely AI will impact marketing a lot what's your own experience with AI and what's your take on AI and its impact on business and marketing in general moving

35:23forward I think AI is is a is a tool it's like a uh very uh superpowered uh saw or a machine that can do a lot of things for you but ultimately the marketer still have to have the knowledge experience and the insight to be able to provide good inputs to the AI so that get something

35:51more useful in the end there are limits to what AI can do regardless of which ones we're talking about you know deep Signa what Quil 2.5 I mean all this new ones coming from China everybody is so excited about it I tried it myself deep sick okay I'm not really very impressed with it to be honest uh

36:14the height is more than the reality I I feel that these are really uh helpful as tools to guide you but ultimately you still need to have a strategy and you must be mindful too of uh when you when we generate images or videos using AI right um there's a possibility that you may get some back

36:36lash from people who may think that you are you are insincere or you know you're not being real uh so so so so sometimes people may may distrust the company because you know they see an image that looks like water or a video that looks like water but when they try to interact

36:55with this water water doesn't interact that you know uh so so then that becomes an issue um but then uh having said that AI will also make it harder for agencies like ours because I'm seeing that more and more companies are doing it in house client agencies are doing inh housee

37:16client uh teams they they they can Implement Ai and if the company is big enough they can also make use of atic AI to St together a few AIS uh to to do the work for them so so basically it's like a interface that can uh manage the whole or part part of the process for them

37:40what is what I find is right now and I I'm seeing some of my friends who are video who are video first content producers right and they are videographers uh business is actually very good for people in the video business especially they can do short videos because this one is very

37:56difficult to a I you know uh AI can craft the SC they can do the story board but they cannot shoot and uh post production also the the the the output usually not quite desirable because they can't capture a little NOS so there is still scope for human marketers but you have

38:18to be uh video first person I mean if you have somebody who is let's say an editorial person uh somebody who is a content Creator uh who primarily depend on right day I think it's really difficult um uh these days nobody is hiring writers anymore they writer is check gbt

38:40or or and we all use that as well I I yeah so yeah that's something that's happening right now so so based on what you're saying are you starting to see or already seen shifts in the client expectation and client requirements when they come to you over the past one year at

39:02least yeah so now clients are not looking for help to produce content clients are looking for uh how to improve their conversions right the number of leads sales so so everything is more bottom of the funnel which means that you if you are an agency and you want to grow in this business you cannot

39:23just be doing content for them you have to look at the whole structure and you have to be able to troubleshoot which part is lacking or not you know for example like maybe the pixel is not in the stock properly it's not firing properly or uh the leting pages are not

39:39doing well because they look too slowly or a bit difficult or maybe the um the the T of content that is being produced is to it's too much talk of the funnel okay talk of the funnel means that your content is about how to do this uh the guide to this 101 because now of this AI

40:03like check GPT or Dei can can take over the role of providing content right they they they will just steal steal Harvest from everywhere and then they will provide the answer so if you are a a company that you want to sell and you want to tap onto content marketing or

40:26social media marketing for instance you cannot just be uh answering basic oneon-one questions you have to really be there when when a potential client is looking for maybe for for example product comparisons or they're looking at how much does it cost or more um or

40:45trouble should take know uh what kind of problems you may face so so so we have to kind of move towards that direction and the other thing is I'm seeing a researchers or social media marketing where you push up content to to your audiences and you you tap onto it as a

41:02way to kind of uh you you you you you kind of uh get them to be interested in your brand because they know that your brand uh can help to solve problems but then they'll Google and they find a website they letting pages opiz and all that so in a way AI is going to Res in

41:22more activity on social media especially the video first uh platforms like uh YouTube I don't see YouTube going down in searches anytime soon Tik Tok uh Instagram maybe to some extent although uh I find the Instagram algorithm a bit a bit funny um so so I I'm kind of seeing this

41:44direction right now not Lincoln okay Lincoln is still pretty much your your social graph so it's it's different from the interest based uh approach there uh Tik Tok or meta is adopted so linkoln by posting content by growing your following uh you can still use it as a way to to get meets coming in

42:10whereas for the other socials is kind of changing but you have to augment it together with uh definitely with some pitx activity definitely you need to do retargeting because uh organic alone is not going to be enough um and and we have to look at multi CH Channel as well

42:28you know newsletter media newsletter um your website some I see more and more companies uh creating their own telegram channels as well uh so so this is kind of like the way I see it going yeah but even even for people like I at least for me it sounds like a lot it sounds

42:49like a lot to do and I can understand probably business owners you know might be overwhelmed and probably some will tell you that what I really can't do all this what how how do you how do you help them navigate like this is big mze of channels and you know we need to do this and we need to do

43:10that and certain channels have certain ways of optimizing right yes how do you help business owners navigate this whole mess of things with all the changing algorithms all the changing customer Behavior and trips and so on I I will look at where the the successful

43:33competitors uh Focus the most time on and uh I will also ask the business owners themselves like if if if they already have an online pres if they don't have an online presence I will look at their competitors and see if uh oh uh which channel seems to be working better um for example okay one of the

43:56things I noticed for Tik Tok right is Tik Tok is good for e-commerce type businesses that try to sell uh products up to a certain value right if you're talking about higher value products like luxury Watchers or uh you know um laptops and all that Tik Tok may not be the place to do that but if you

44:19talk about very consumer goods like uh uh I don't know um back massages or clothing or health lients Tik Tok is really good for this type you know selfie sticks I know I recently bought a selfie stick because I saw it on on Tik Tok um so these are the typ of things

44:37that Tik Tok is really good for uh so I'll go to each of the channel and then Google ads so so if I I will go and Google by prospects then I'll see whether got ads appearing and then I will click on the ads to see what C companies are advertising what what are their landing pages like and whether um

44:57do I see that this is a feasible Channel or not so I actually evaluate each one individually to determine if they should I think it also depends on how much budget the client have the budget is very limited right uh like oh I only have a th000 I'll tell I'll tell them

45:14don't don't uh don't waste time with getting agency you go and sign up for all the causes and equip Academy and try and DIY right uh if they have a slightly bigger budget then I maybe 3 to 5,000 that'll say okay maybe you can try doing doing some social media uh maybe some

45:33stuff on your website a bit of SEO uh but some you do some do some agency can do if the budgets are bigger say uh uh five fig some 10 overk or or 20 overk a month then I would recommend okay then you can also do Google ads right you can do uh uh s like more ffled uh um you

45:54know market so really depends on the budgets depends on the competition uh it depends on also where the customers are um the frame of mind of the customers would they be in the right frame of mind to purchase your products and services Lin as we all know is is kind

46:13of like the B2B place but but you cannot just depend on linking Al load right so you also need to have a website maybe you will need to look at some SEO optimization especially if you B to B because these are the key things that usually happens yeah so you if you're

46:34seeing like for business owners right if their marketing budget and again I think the challenge with these days with the you know intense competition in the economy yes a lot of business are having a lot of cost and they they you know the we always say right in bad times the

46:52easiest budget to slice to cut is the marketing budget so what you're saying can correct me if I'm wrong if their budget is in the low thousands your advice is probably save the money don't engage agency do yourself in terms of organic portions first right higher higher uh video young

47:18stuff okay yeah that makes sense yeah yeah so do all the video recording all the all okay cool cool cool yeah and just you mentioned about t is very useful for Consumer products below a certain price point that that goes right have you seen cases where it got wants for B2B

47:43Services I me agency so like uh so one of Myers and my friend she she she posted on Tik Tok about her agency and her agency does Tik Tok videos for client so uh as well as Instagram now so because they are video first uh that has helped her get a lot of customers at one

48:03time she was getting like a few leits a day you know a day you know on Tik Tok but of course the the challenge with Tik Tok is a lot of low ballers a lot of plans got no money and I look so so there the thing because they are like startups or they they want to like do

48:19their own but they TR to spend too much but video is not that cheap so um I think the other type of uh B2B bus that could do well on say video first like Tik Tok I mean especially if it's uh more more related to gen Z the younger generation I think perhaps some training

48:39type businesses could be useful uh because for training then uh you you want to reach out to the mes and Tik Tok would be a way for you to talk about your you know what you provide of course um the other thing is maybe I don't know like uh coaching perhaps or uh or children uh children Rel certain

49:05tyes of children in business I think can do I once saw a swimming school uh that did pretty well on Tik Tok so because they they have nice videos of the kids like swimming and then they show the instructors giving certain uh moves and all that so that could have a potential

49:21of take thoughts well yeah it it it sounds as if you know what I'm going to ask you next because you you you you you you went into the coaching and the cses thing and and that was actually the next thing I want to ask you about like for B especially like agency services like

49:37ours right you mentioned about the challenging climate now more and more like if you're talking about content creation production and and execution right uh a lot it can be done by AI a lot of companies will have their in-house people doing that taking care of with AI

49:54assistance and agencies like our have to evolve does that and we probably also have seen a fair bit of agencies actually transitioning away from agency servicing more to education more to knowledge right what do you think of this trend and you know is that something that you

50:16are considering I mean apart from of course doing your your your train trainer uh with with yeah how do you look at this environment definitely I I see it I mean I'm right now uh trading is uh is quite a significant part of the work that we do I mean I do uh equ I

50:38also have other training gigs as well and I see that um this could be the the only way to go in the future where uh the the the rule is more of a like a trainer like a coach like a mentor for for uh employees of companies or business owners themselves who want to master the different parts of digital

51:05marketing I think one of the challenges with the agency model is that these days because things happen quite fast and people want things to be you know spontaneous and organic and authentic you see so the moment you have to go through a post- production a production

51:21process and you have to design things a little bit spru it out bit it doesn't look so so real so authentic anymore plus there also a lack time whereas if you have a staff right the staff can just oh do you can shoot this shoot that then you just use C cut quickly cut together something and then

51:39post right so it can be a lot faster that way to do it in house but of course then uh this is where the potential for the new Revenue stream could come for people like us where we we we kind of like move towards more of the training coaching type of business model I think

51:55the other the other thing is also if there's a way to provide um more bik siiz services to uh to companies that is that may not go into a sort of a big retailer s for instance but but where they can s of like uh buffet style pick and Shop you know maybe I need I need

52:18some videography that I can uh buy some videography from you maybe I need need to run some ads for this specific campaign it's only going to be for him eight weeks for example you know and then they they can get you to help to run a campaign for 8 weeks and then that's it so I see nowadays that this

52:34seems to be the trend uh I mean there's still some big contracts going out there but usually these are more for um you know if if agency is big enough and they can swallow everything then they may want to go for this but usually those are more for like government or uh you

52:55know like big big companies uh most of the small companies don't really hire a full flap you know um integrated agency to handle everything that's what I see yeah you also just mentioned about this idea of if let's say you have in house like for example you know doing

53:14the filming and the quick cut on C cart and things like that right so you you have that push of more content out the door but for a l of a better way to describe it it's lesser in production value okay which if we go back to where you were talking about earlier on about

53:35some of the challenges and some of the uh weaknesses that businesses have whenever they embark on marketing is the lack of quality uh creatives quality uh assets brand assets right right I think my question is then how do you reconcile this on one hand I'm sure you agree that these days the

54:00audience are more concerned with authenticity and and and the value of the content itself but there is also a threshold where your content cannot you know drop to in terms of creativity quality and level right so how do you reconcile this two seemingly opposing ideas yeah so so I think that uh some

54:25basics is needed in terms of uh equipping or training uh but at the same time is how to how how it can be carried on I mean I'm thinking of a new model where it's like a retainer coaching kind of a model where perhaps um you know people like us could uh could help uh

54:50in-house teams it's it's a bit like a fractional uh agency or fractional marketer I know one of my friends she she she call this St of a fractional marketer so so you you spend some time working with the in-house te and you actually teach them or guide them okay when you shoot you know you must like

55:08this like this and then you do editing how do you edit and then uh when you uh when when we look at the website you know so so I I think this could be the model going ahead where it's more of a uh you know getting uh uh paying enough for their expertise but not necessarily

55:29Outsourcing the whole fion to you so so it's you know um because they need somebody with some experience with knowledge and uh with hopefully wisdom uh that's where they could hire people on that basis yeah I'm it's interesting you talk about fractional and I've heard

55:48Bas yeah time base hiring and no you know what to be honest to be perfectly honest I've heard of the term fractional CMO fractional marketing for Since U middle of last year I have no idea what it means have clear cut definition for all of us you know what fra because like

56:09yeah I do hear some people some of our friends talking about oh they are doing fractional marketing they're doing FR they are a fractional marketing agency and then he C me scratching like what's the difference between a fractional marketing agency and a marketing agency

56:21and there are some of our friends who are doing fractional s which maybe our old school I can't tell the difference I can't explain the difference between a full marketer and a fractional one do you have a do you have a definition of your own that can help us CLE this yeah so a

56:42fractional executive or manager or CMO right will be one where you are not hired fulltime so yeah a bit like time left uh but um you you will give them that same amount of uh service knowledge wisdom leadership whatever for the period of time so why why why does this

57:07come up is because some there are small businesses that may not have so much work for a full-time marketing director right to be fired and fulltime markeet director could be expensive you know maybe 10K 15K 20K depends on the level so by going fractional let's say I I

57:24only need this person one day a week or equivalent I I pay less but at the same time this person is able to give uh inputs or advice for for debt you know that know certain areas of work that I may need uh this person's guidance on so the idea is they can save a bit of uh I

57:45mean they don't really have need for a full-time position at the same time uh this also frees up the bandwidth of the fractional marketing person to be able to do addition other types of work for you know for himself or the S so it's kind of a win-win position now I mean

58:03let's say if I'm a small business owner right I I have like $2,000 or or maybe three okay maybe not this fresh graduates maybe like 3,000 $4,000 right uh $4,000 should I hire a fresh graduate and the fresh graduate is going to ask me questions every single day don't know

58:19how to do don't know execute or maybe I spend the $4,000 I will buy like one3 or one qu of the time of experienced digital marketer who can do some of these things uh for me and maybe work with some agencies as well so some there the benefit they don't have to pay uh

58:38Senor management W but the same time they can benefit from his or her of course this also means that the amount of work may not be so much may not be able to cover so many things compared to let's say if you are getting a full-time person now you know but I guess

58:52sometimes you don't really need to have a full-time person especially if the T is to work with many different agencies to be to Outsource uh your work then then this fractional person could come in so to wrap up what you just said if I could crystallize it in a few points moving forward businesses

59:13should focus on branding right as getting their brands to associate with a certain product or service or category so that people remember them look into short digestable video content and also be more specific and targeted about the channels that they invest their advertising dollars into and also

59:40look into the retargeting and the remarketing mechanics of it thanks for the sharing and hope to see you back for future episodes and then let's discuss and talk more all right okay thanks thank you bye hey guys guys if you enjoy this podcast subscribe and share it with your friends

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